Shortly after Kim Scott joined Google, a colleague told her not to wear a pink sweater to a meeting with executives.
Well, as you can imagine, not cool.
“The basic message, masquerading as helpful advice, was, ‘Try not to look too feminine in this meeting,'” recalls Scott, who ran the DoubleClick team at the time. “He thought he was being helpful.”
Scott, author of the recently released book “Radical Respect: How to Work Together Better,” has served as a CEO coach for tech companies including Dropbox, Qualtrics, and X (formerly Twitter), and she has heard plenty of stories of workplace bias, discrimination, and bullying that can lead to discrimination, harassment, and violence.
Solution: Don’t just describe the problem. You have to think about what to do to fix it. “Awareness is the first step to change,” Scott writes.
Scott’s talk about improving the workplace has been edited for length and clarity.
Kelly Hannon: What do you mean by “total respect”?
Kim Scott: Radical respect comes from being in a work environment that optimizes cooperation, not coercion. There is a hierarchy, but it’s not a dominance hierarchy. Everyone’s individuality is respected, not subservience is demanded. Cooperation is the superpower of humanity. The first definition of respect is something I have to earn. That’s not what I mean by radical respect. It’s the unconditional respect we owe to each other for our shared humanity, feelings, backgrounds, and traditions.
What are the obstacles to making radical respect a reality?
I would sum it up into three big issues: prejudice, discrimination and bullying, and part of the problem is that we often confuse these three as if they were one issue.
Each requires a different response. Unconscious bias isn’t something you really mean. Prejudice is. It’s a very consciously held belief, and it usually incorporates some unfair and inaccurate stereotype. Bullying is just being mean. It’s an attempt to control or coerce another person.
So how do we address these?
If you think it’s bias, respond with an “I” statement: “I don’t think that’s what you meant.” Using “I” statements is like holding up a mirror and asking the other person to see things from your point of view. And usually, they don’t think that way, so they’ll change what they’re saying.
Prejudice, on the other hand, requires the use of “it.” “It” means that a person is free to believe what they want, but they can’t force their beliefs on you. “It” can appeal to the law, it can appeal to company policy, it can appeal to common sense.
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In the case of bullying, use statements like, “You shouldn’t talk to me like that” and questions like, “What’s wrong?” and “Why are you acting like that?” Take what they are telling yourself and allow them to respond instead of reacting to it. Be proactive instead of submissive.
Kim Scott: “Why are you acting like this?” (Kim Scott)
Can you give an example of prejudice?
I had just returned to work after five months of maternity leave, and while chatting with a guy before a meeting, he told me, “My wife doesn’t want me to work for the sake of our children.”
This was a shock to me. I couldn’t believe he really said that. So I tried using “I” language to make it more funny: “I decided to leave my kids alone so I went to work.” I expected him to laugh and move on. But he went on to say, “Kim, you don’t understand. It’s really bad for your kids that you went back to work.”
I realized it was bias. I used the “it statement.” I said, “It’s an HR violation for you to tell me that I’m neglecting my kids.” And it had the desired effect. He became insecure. So I said, “Look, I’m not going to deal with HR. This is between you and me. How we raise our kids is up to me and my spouse to decide together. How you raise your kids is up to you and your spouse to decide. Fortunately, we’re not raising our kids together, so we don’t have to agree on that.” If I hadn’t said anything, it would have left me with this simmering resentment. And it would have made it more difficult for us to work together.
How can women who face bias in the workplace fight back, especially when it comes to pay?
There’s one story in my book that I love: A female engineer at Facebook found out she was being paid less than her male colleagues. She got upset about it, and she went to Mark Zuckerberg and said, “Look, all I want to do is build great products. All I want to think about is build great products. But if I find out that I’m unfairly being paid less than my male colleagues, I’m going to think about that. That’s not what you want. That’s not what I want.” And he raised her salary.
The truth is, women are good at negotiating.
Total respect
Have a question about retirement, personal finance or career-related matters? Click here to send a message to Kerry Hannon.
“For many, it comes down to a reluctance to have uncomfortable conversations,” you write. Can you elaborate?
When you notice a problem, it’s tempting to say nothing. Silence becomes the default. As for the colleague who was angry with me when I returned from maternity leave, [my response] That means he’s not going to say those things to other women. One of the big risks of prioritizing silence is losing agency. I’m not saying you have to say something every time, but if you choose to stay silent, make it an active choice, not just because it’s awkward.
I decided to say something because I valued my relationship with this person, I didn’t think he was a bad person, and even if you don’t agree with someone’s view on a particular issue, you can still be respectful.
Kelly Hannon is a senior columnist for Yahoo Finance. She’s an expert on career and retirement strategy and the author of 14 books, including “In Control at 50+: How to Succeed in The New World of Work” and “Never Too Old to Get Rich.” Follow her at X. Kelly Hannon.
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